Documentary Goes Undercover in British Mosques, Finds 'Ideology of Bigotry'

It would be a bit surprising to see it on mainstream media in the US, because it is much more of a British phenomena. You shouldn't assume that American Islam is anything like this.

GoReporter mentioned the American media, and you seem to be following along with her. By talking about US media disinterest in a British phenomenon, someone could easily get the impression that you are generalizing about all Islam. Such generalizations would be wrong, and it is worth taking the trouble to draw these distinctions.

Wait, who's symbol are you saying is a sword?

Last time I checked, Islam is represented by a crescent and star. Where did you get a sword?

I am surprised to hear you say this immediately after you refer to yourself as some one who has "read or researched Islam beyond what you see on the thin skinned surface of the media."

And before you start comparing implied violence in various religious symbols, please don't forget that Christianity's symbol is based on an instrument of torture and execution.

I am surprised at how biased and clouded your understanding of both Christianity and Islam seems to be. Are you familiar with the idea of Manifest Destiny and how Christianity was used throughout the 1800s as an excuse for land appropriation and warfare?

As you can plainly see, any religion - no matter how well meaning - can be twisted and misused to support violent oppression. Need I give you other examples where the Christian church has supported or preformed violent and despicable acts?

Both Christianity and Islam have their problems, but they are also responsible for some pretty wonderful things through out history as well.

All I am asking is you take a minute to learn about religions not just in terms of black and white, but for looking at the history and basic fundamental beliefs. If you look past all the rhetoric and hate mongering, you'll see that Islam is very much indeed like Christianity, in that they are both religions of peace, selflessness, and suffering for the greater good.

I understand your response, here is an excellent documentation of the issue at hand.
BTW, the cross was tormenting Christ, not a TOOL used by Christians.

We use it as a symbol of the Savior who sacrificed all for us.

A NEW STATE RELIGION
Today, there is a movement that claims 800 million followers worldwide; it is rapidly growing in Europe, Africa and America. This movement is very aggressive and often violent, teaching that if someone will not willingly convert that they must eventually be eliminated. This movement boldly demands the death of all who would oppose it. The name of the movement is "Islam." It invaded our shores under the protection of freedom of religion, and is spreading in every direction thanks to our advanced media, taking advantage of people's lack of knowledge of the Arabic language and Islamic history. Islam, however, is more than a religion; it is a comprehensive way of life. Those who defend Islam claim that Muslims desire to live peacefully with all men, yet the facts of history prove that if and when Muslims gain control they will fight and even kill in order to eliminate all opposition to Islam.

The Quran and the Hadeeth, Muslims' holy books, contain the religious, social, civil, commercial, military, and legal codes for Muslims. What many people do not realize is that the teachings of Islam are not just ethical guidelines; they are binding laws with severe punishments attached to them that range from public whipping to chopping off of body parts and beheading. In the hands of extremists, this type of law once established inevitably leads to gross abuse and oppression. As in most countries where the Islamic code of law is enforced, the average citizen suffers while the crimes and hypocrisy of the wealthy and those in power go unpunished.

A RELIGION OF THE SWORD
The most alarming thing about Islam is that if it becomes powerful enough, the option for those under its control wouldn't be whether to accept Islam or reject it. It would be, rather, whether to accept Islam or, at best, become second class citizens, at worst face DEATH. Allah's instructions are clear:

"Fight and slay the pagans (non-Muslims)
wherever you find them." (Surah 9:5)

According to the Quran there shouldn't be another religion besides Islam in an Islamic country:

"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam, never will it be
accepted of him; and in the hereafter he will be in the ranks of
those who have lost." (Surah 3:85)

Some suggest that Islam speaks good about "People of the Book" (Christians and Jews). Well, not good enough. Read on:

"Fight those who believe not in God nor the last day... nor acknowledge the religion of truth, and fight people of the book, until they pay Jizya (penalty tax) with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." (Surah 9:29)

A HISTORY OF TERRORISM
Muslims have been using the power of terror throughout history, following Allah's instructions on how to deal with the infidels:

"..Strike terror [into the hearts of] the enemies of God and your enemies."(Surah 8:60)

CONSIDER...

* In the United States, where these acts have just begun, Muslims bombed the World Trade Center, and conspired to blow up other important buildings and commuter tunnels. Before that, they held Americans hostage in Iran and in Lebanon.

* In southern Sudan, Muslims have destroyed whole villages, killing thousands of Christians, after they crucified their leaders before their eyes.

* In Uganda, Idi Amin slaughtered 300,000 of his people, mostly Christians, after he embraced Islam.

* In Nigeria, Christians are being beaten, imprisoned, and killed by Muslims. Converting to Islam is seen as an easy way out.

* In Egypt, 12 million Christian Copts, the oringinal Egyptians, face annihilation.

* In the lands where Christianity was born, Jordan, the West Bank, Syria and Turkey, Christianity is vanishing. If this trend continues, Christianity will disappear from that area within a few years.

* In 1974 Turkey invaded the northern part of Cyprus, pushing some 200,000 Christian Cypriots toward the south.

* At the start of World War I, Muslim Turks massacred over 1.5 million Armenian Christians for no apparent reason other than being Christian.

A 7TH CENTURY WAY OF LIFE.
No matter how much they try to patch up Islam to make it attractive to the West, there are still many teachings of Islam that fall short of recognized modern huma n rights standards. The rights accorded to those 7th century Bedouins are far from being acceptable to us in the 21st century. Here are a few examples of the teachings of Islam and their references in the Quran:

1) Men are superior to women.(Surah 2:228) 2) Women have half the rights of men: a. In court witness.(Surah 2:282) b. in inheritance.(Surah 4:11) 3) A man may beat his wife.(Surah 4:34) 4) A man may marry up to four wives at the same time.(Surah 4:3) 5) Muslims must fight until their opponents submit to Islam.(Surah 9:5) 6) A Muslims must not take Jews or Christians for friends.(Surah 5:54) 7) A Muslim apostate must be killed.(Surah 9:12) 8) Stealing is punished by the amputation of the hands.(Surah 5:41) 9) Adultery is punished by public flogging.(Surah 4:2)
10) No separation between Church and State.(Surah 2:193)
11) No opposition party allowed.(Surah 4:59)

ISLAM AND AMERICA
Can Islam, someday, force these values on us here in America? JUST GIVE IT TIME! Today, followers of Islam in the United States have reached 4 to 6 million. Muslims project they are gaining an additional 1 million Americans every year. If this statistic proves correct, Muslims will number about 25 million within 2 decades. Such a large number of people could become a strong voting bloc which could change things around. They could be a deciding factor on who would become our president, legislators, governors, mayors, and so forth. They could demand concessions favoring them, and get them.

AND, NOW...
Did you become alarmed enough? I was hoping that you would. The reason we feel this way is because those of us who have lived in countries under Islamic domination know how bad it can get. Most of us had to leave our motherlands, fleeing Islamic persecution. We dread the thought that Islam might take over any nation, especially America, because then our children or grandchildren would have to flee, just as we did. The difference this time, is that there may not be anywhere left to go. The threat of Islam is real. Don't by deceived by it's propaganda; reject its regressive teachings and uphold our Christian values and ideals.

KNOW THE TRUTH - FOLLOW THE TRUTH
SPREAD THE TRUTH - JESUS IS THE TRUTH!
"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." (John 8:32)

By Aduallah Al Araby

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AGGRESSIVE CHRISTIANITY
HR 60, BOX 11
FENCE LAKE, NM 87315

I love how this source of this article is "Aggressive Christianity". That adds a lot of credibility to its argument(sarcasm). Why do you waste our time with lopsided dribble? If you accept this as total truth then do you also accept everything your government does as "good for the people"?

Right-wing man. Your post is exactly what I am talking about. The sources that you seem to be using are extremely biased and uninformed about hwta the are talking about. Here are just a few examples of things this aggresive christianity is misleading or wrong about.

1.Your article says that the Hadith are a holy book.

The Quran and the Hadeeth, Muslims' holy books

But it is not at all, the Quran is the only holy book. Also, there is no one Hadith, there are different Hadiths for different schools of Jurisprudence in Islam They are collections of stories and anecdotes about Muhammad, which are used to direct righteous ways of living for Muslims - kind of like the books of the new testament.

Not a great foot to start an article on Islam about, but this misreadings continue:

2 The article cites this surah:

"Fight and slay the pagans (non-Muslims)
wherever you find them." (Surah 9:5)

But it is taking out of context. Before this Surrah begins, Surrah 9:1-4 talk about pagans who violate treaties with Muslims (such as alliances). Surrah 9:5, says "But when the forbidden months/ ar past, then fight or slay". This is saying that you had to wait 4 months of peace (even if the so-called pagans were attacking you) before you could respond in kind. Also in the surrah, it says that if they repent, they should be forgiven and accepted.

3 Your article says:

According to the Quran there shouldn't be another religion besides Islam in an Islamic country:

"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam, never will it be
accepted of him; and in the hereafter he will be in the ranks of
those who have lost." (Surah 3:85)

Again, this is not what the Surrah is saying if you actually read the text. No where does it mention acceptance with in a Muslim state or an islamic country. It is only saying that if you don't accept Islam, and follow different Gods, then you won't receive the same spiritual blessing (or whatever you want to call it) from Allah in the Hereafter. But for someone who doesn't believe in Allah in the first place, that doesn't sound like all that bad of a deal.

Really, this is the same as that Christian Ideal that Pagans (like the early romans or Native Americans )had to stand outside the gates in Purgatory because they weren't lucky enough to have heard the message of Jesus and convert to Christianity.

4.ANd here is perhaps the meanest misrepresentation of all:
Your arcticle says:

Some suggest that Islam speaks good about "People of the Book" (Christians and Jews). Well, not good enough. Read on:

"Fight those who believe not in God nor the last day... nor acknowledge the religion of truth, and fight people of the book, until they pay Jizya (penalty tax) with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." (Surah 9:29)

The Jizya, which the article refers to as a "penalty tax" was no such thing. It was a symbolic tax in lieu of zakat (which all Muslims paid). Many were exempted from this tax including the poor, women, children, hermits and monks. Seems to me like if Muslims were really against the "people of the book" that they would levy higher taxes on those were more religious like the monks. Also, because the tax was mainly for able bodied men of military age, it was also seen as a commutation of service.

right-wing-man,
as you can see this article is filled with inaccuracies and misleadings about what Islam is about. I ask that you next time do your own research about topics you are interested and be more cynical of this type of vitriol.

This was a very educational interchange. Thank you.

The linked videos are no longer available due to Hardcash Productions (the company that produced the documentary?) enforcing their copyright... Is there another source?

no. it appears the power of the copyright has got them.

Do a google video search.

And MPACUK has kindly published a (for me, it looks nearly complete, but cuts off at the end) transcript.

Probably worth noting that MPACUK and Green Lane Mosque have both posted responses. Green Lane describes the program as inaccurate in its depiction of them:

Dispatches failed to adequately differentiate between the application of Islamic Shariah in an Islamic State and its application within a minority Muslim community in modern day Britain. This vital distinction would have been self-evident to any viewer had the relevant statements been presented in their correct context.

Frankly, I don't think that's much of an explanation for what was said in the documentary. On the other hand, MPACUK at least acknowledges that the views expressed in the show were extreme, but denies that it is representative:

Of course there are examples of religious intolerance/bigotry in England - and everywhere else. It doesn't matter what religion or what country. Stupidity is the most plentiful element in the universe.

I watched a few minutes. It bothered me. The same way that Klan rallies bother me, or that film "Jesus Camp".

Unfortunately, Dennis, these are not exactly fringe groups in the British, Muslim community. As the article says, some were considered centers of moderation. One of the founders of the largest Muslim organization in Britain, MPACUK (typically viewed as quite moderate), supported David Irving. Their website seems to regularly repost stuff from blatantly antisemitic and even neo-Nazi sources.

This would be more like walking into a popular and liberal church, where everyone told you all were welcome, and finding a Klan meeting.

steve,
as koozebane said:

I don't recall the Klan ever speaking at any of the major churches in my region.

did u watch the documentary? did u see how many 'moderate' mosques in central London and in northern cities of england ... held and peached gave hate-speechs?

I think you're largely right, Steve. And we should oppose both brands of extremism.

Watch the videos, listen to the message and see how far up it goes

Personally I'd be more worried about how far down it goes. Does the leadership reflect the views of the average muslim?

I keep getting told by Australian muslims that the insane rantings of our own home-brewed islamic fanatics don't at all reflect the views of "99% of muslims", but I don't know whether or not to believe them. I mean, if these community leaders don't reflect the average muslim's views then why are they still comunity leaders?

Koozebane,

thanks for posting this - it is good to expose these sorts of messages so that people are aware of the problem and respond. It is important for the followers of Islam to stand up now and do some self-examination of the messages and culture that they support and promote: it is time to do some house cleaning.

But - I submit it is relevant to put this in context - narrow-minded religious extremism /fundamentalism is not just a Muslim problem (though it presently is a big problem for Islam). Other organizations have their own narrowminded extremists.

Two recent examples:

• )

I agree with Steve - Muslims have this problem - but it is more than just a Muslim problem. It is a problem with narrow minded, self-rightous extremists of any cause: be it religious, political or other.

As Koozebane has repeatedly pointed out, the problem is more than just that extremist muslims exist. The much more serious problem is that islam in Britain is being led by these extremists, even in places which were thought to be more moderate in outlook.

Arrgh - the links got dropped by the Newby filter in my earlier post... Koozebane,

thanks for posting this - it is good to expose these sorts of messages so that people are aware of the problem and respond. It is important for the followers of Islam to stand up now and do some self-examination of the messages and culture that they support and promote: it is time to do some house cleaning.

But - I submit it is relevant to put this in context - narrow-minded religious extremism /fundamentalism is not just a Muslim problem (though it presently is a big problem for Islam). Other organizations have their own narrowminded extremists.

Two recent examples:

I don't think that many people on the Christian right were upset about Pat Robertson's comments. After all, he still has a TV show, and millions of people still watch it.

Yes, but not by the far right who actually listen to what he says. That's my point. Pat Robertson has more of a following than this guy.

I can't actually watch the videos to verify what he was talking about, but after watching the interview with him lower on the page I have to conclude that there was much exaggeration and misinterpretation. That raises some doubts about the credibility of this report.

No, I'm not a Muslim (not that it matters). I'm an atheist. I'm against both religions, but I'm also against hypocrisy and misinformation.

You mean making a conclusion based on the evidence available is wrong? What??

"didn't bother to watch"?? I explained why I could not watch it. You even quoted it.

Firstly; tone down.

I agree that extremism across all religions exists - and always has. Granted and bravo for reaffirming.
What is so disturbing about this documentary is ... these extremists are now granted audience by moderate muslim mosques, listened to by impressionable youth at these mosques (I'm from London and the Regent's Park mosque is supposed to be a shining example of the open multicultural nation) ... and moderate imans seem unwilling or unable to police their own brethren.

What is disturbing is these people say one thing to the chief of police for London (the Met.) ... and the blair administration and members of parliament ... and when the doors are closed from outsiders ... these imans' rally cry is the destruction of the UK and the US etc etc.

Yes extremism exists - but this documentary appears to propose their acceptance across leading mosques of the nation.

Extremism - political, religious, ideological ... is unacceptable and cannot be tolerated - YET it is.

Does that make sense?
R

Koozebane, I'm not sure if you can really make that argument.

In the 1920's, the Klan held significant positions of power within churches and state legislature positions and would blatantly try to inject - sometimes successfully - their ideology into the mainstream.

Does that mean that their view points are (or were) mainstream? Just because they 'held the floor' at these venues, does it mean that they in any way spoke for broad spectrum of faiths that fall under the umbrella term "Christianity"

Not in my opinion, at least.

They are now a fringe organization that is largely shunned and certainly not welcome in any official capacity at a vast majority of prominent churches across America.

Do you have any evidence that these imans and their message are welcome at the vast majority of mosques?

Perhaps, rather than this being evidence that moderate Muslims share these views, it indicates that certain mosques are not as moderate as they were believed to be?

It's a little more complicated than that, Steve. These are the Muslim leaders that British leftists are forming alliances with, that the media is going to for the voice of moderate Islam, and that the government is holding talks with. It probably isn't a large number of British Muslims, even though it probably is a large number of mosques, but the problem is the roles these leaders have.

A number of British Leftists have abandoned pretty much every tenet of liberalism to forge these alliances. Leaders are saying that they're not going to press for gay rights because it would upset their coalitions. The Socialist Workers Party is routinely inviting blatant antisemites (the kind who say the Jews killed Christ) to it's gatherings. This is having a profound impact on British politics.

The Klan has since been largely rejected and has failed to hold any power or real influence. They are now a fringe organization that is largely shunned and certainly not welcome in any official capacity at a vast majority of prominent churches across America.

Sure the Klan has lost power now, but that hasn't always been the case.

Koozebane, you didn't really address my question, so I'll ask it again: Does the fact that the Klan spoke at and held power in these moderate venue (even though it was in the past) mean that they "spoke" for all Christians during that particular time period?

there is no indication of any outrage over these messages being taught at prominent mosques

How do you know there's not? Are you basing this on the fact that you don't see this kind of opposition to radical islamists on TV? is it because there are no "pro-peace pundits" on CNN, or MSNBC or FOX? I can tell you from personal experience talking to Muslim friends here in Colorado, that that your statement is not true. Have you been to any Mosques? Have you done any kind of research into this yourself? I suggest before you make any sweeping and over-simplistic generalizations that you go out and actually try to learn something about the people you are condemning

I'm not trying to back you into a corner at all, I'm just trying to show that just because a radical form of something takes over a mainstream venue, it does not become mainstream.

I have not indicated at any time that these radicals speak for all Muslims. Thus, the question is based on nothing to do with anything in the conversation.

But I feel it is it is relevant to the conversation (and this topic) because you earlier said:

This is NOT examples of radical Islam when it is clearly shown being taught in mainstream venues.

I do agree with some of what you said however, and I do see that this is a cause for great concern. I just took issue with the above statement, because it is something that i have seen a lot of lateley and am highly suspicious of.

Oh, I forgot to include these. Here are a couple of the responses i've seen so far. again, I don't want to imply that these article speak for all Muslims. I just want to show you that they are out there.

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/inayat_bunglawala/2007/01/post_938.html

and

http://www.mpacuk.org/content/view/3273/1/

Stevo, where are you from?
Britain is one of the most 'integrated' multi-racial and politically-correct nations on Earth. Truly!
Political-correctness has gone awry! Folks cannot wear crucifix (spelling, sorry) if they work for the federal or local government yet a 'minority' can wear the burka ... etc etc.

Yes, there are whole cities in the country where minorities congrugate and decide to live - based on their 'own' building communities there ... so they build their own walls or states-within-states ... but by and large (and I've lived across and around London for many years before moving to Chicago) ... a professional middle-class muslim lives next door to a brit of african descent ... next-door to aan anglosaxon (haha, such a silly phrase these days) ... etc etc. There is racial and religious tolerance ... unless forced upon by your own creed/culture/religion.

SO - point? there is no justification in my silly Anglophile opinion.
R

I think some folks are just pointing out that fundamentalists seem to care less about the specific religion and more about the oppression, destruction and creepy pedophilia.

You can find people spewing hatred in Mormon compounds in Utah, in extremist churches (with, yes, Klan ties), in the back alleys of cities around the world. Hatred is its own religion.

And, point of interest, aimed at #10.1: The crucifix issue is not government-mandated at all. It's a required uniform rule for British Airways employees only. As a business, it is the right of British Airways to decide the attire of its workers and the aim of the uniform policy is to keep any religious symbols out of the airport terminal in order to avoid offending people of all religions. (Personally, I think it's silly. Sadly, I don't own B.A.)

I think you missed my point.

I fully understand yours and I'm undecided as yet.

It is in the mainstream churches, as is a lot of fundamentalist Christian rhetoric. The question isn't who is spewing it, its how many of the worshippers are not questioning it. Yes these leaders are trying to brainwash their masses, all leaders do. Are the people listening sheep, or do they think for themselves?

I say we take fundamentalists from various religions and ship them to an island cut off from the rest of the world (antartica should be pleasant in about 20 years). We also ship any weapons we can find. Cameras will be posted around this island and we will watch what happens. Its the new reality TV.

She's like the female version of Geraldo.

and ur point? :-)

She's very sensationalist